Reviewing Graphic Design For Dummies

I've been reading and reviewing (here, here, here, and here) books about graphic design.

For book number fourteen, I picked something different. It's produced for a very different teaching style, and was published just last year.

Graphic design for dummies. 2025. Ben Hannam.

I haven't more than flicked through any of the For Dummies books before. I was curious how simple they could actually make the topic.

I ended up having a lot to say about this book, hence a dedicated review post. Not until we get to Meggs' history of graphic design (spoilers) will we see a book with such a contrast of highs and lows!

Writing style and repetitiveness

Graphic design for dummies is extremely readable, in a way that suggests there's a manual of style for this series. The vocabulary is basic and the sentences themselves are seldom complex.

The author often repeats the same thought twice in a row, sometimes with minimal rewording. On page 154, two paragraphs in a row recommend picking a palette of two to five colours. On page 156, the idea that even subtle textures can reinforce design concepts is written two different ways within a paragraph.

Sometimes author Ben Hannam repeats short phrases within a sentence. On page 71, one paragraph states twice that some creatives may feel "threatened" by generative AI; the same paragraph contains the sentence "There are legitimate concerns about copyright and authorship, the quality and uniqueness of the work, and other legitimate concerns" (emphasis added). Page 177 says: "In Figure 8-9, the concept of position hierarchy has been illustrated to help show the concept of position hierarchy." The pinnacle is page 221:

That one is clearly a mistake, but there are so many instances of repetition that I'm not sure it's all errors or filler. It might be Hannam's personal style, or something required by the For Dummies series. Or it might be an artifact of LLM generation — not a possibility I like to bring up, but this is a recent book and the author is deeply pro-AI, as we shall see.

A lot of the repetitiveness serves to reassure. About half of the book's first eight pages of text is just reiterated reassurances for a novice. This returns several times, e.g., on page 75, and I expect it is a feature of the For Dummies series.

Hannam's writing is accessible and clearly-written, with high explanatory power. However, there are a number of awkward phrasings along the lines of "especially if you're first starting out or at the beginning of your journey" (page 2) which align with both the text's repetitiveness and, yes, its grammatical problems.

Errors

What is the state of modern publishing? Usually I reduce it to a few lines of complaints, but this time I'll list the errors that jumped out at me (and then only when I had my notepad nearby).

• "to communication" for "to communicate" (page 41)
• "you may in interested in sharing" (page 53)
• "creating" for "creative" (page 57)
• A cost is itself described as being "pricy" (page 65)
• Page 72 says 360 KB is 180% of 20 KB
• "likes" for "like" (page 74)
• Stray commas (pages 80, 141, 193)
• Wrong product names (page 86)
• "hone in on" (page 96)
• "This may be the first time the client has worked with a graphic designer before" (page 108)
• "ready to go until needed" (page 116)
• Mistaken insertion of "what" (page 131)
• "place" for "placing" (page 134)
• A sentence that's just a collection of verb phrases (page 138) 
• "holes" for "wholes" (page 144)
• "more [...] rather than" for "more [...] than" (page 147)
• "but it can" for "but can" (page 149)
• "a disconnect between [single thing]" (page 151)
• An unnecessary "for you" (page 151)
• "when done so" for "when done" (page 160)
• "ration" for "ratio" (page 164) 
• "land" for "land on" (page 193)
• "technically be" for "be technically" (page 176) 
• "Repetition movement to move to help move your audience's eyes" (page 172)
• Missing "that of" results in comparing a binding method to a book (page 182)
• it/they confusion (page 184)
• "horizontal likes" for "horizontal lines" (page 186)
• "software [...] has already begun to adapt AI tools into their software" (page 241)
• A list of verbs ends with a noun (page 242)
• "of" for "from" and "make" for "take" (page 244)
• Missing "that" (page 197)
• "not to" for "to not" (page 198)
• Missing capital (page 199)
• "in" for "is" (page 206) 
• "and" for "with" (page 220)
• "Chapter 1" for "Bonus Chapter 1" (page 222) 
• Accidental sentence break (page 236)

This was far from a close reading. I doubt these were even a quarter of the errors in the book. There might be a mistake per page on average.

...But no typos that a spellchecker would have picked up. That's the best I can say about it. Anyway, my heart goes out to the book's credited proofreader Debbye, who must have either been under an impossible time crunch or been given a truly nightmarish manuscript if this many errors made it into the final work!

Maybe this is just the new normal. I've gone on about the textual problems in other teaching design books. I've seen elementary typos on official communications from my bank. And at the meta level, even some of the real-world design examples shown in Graphic design for dummies are full of errors, e.g., you can see typos in the barely-visible text in the Raskal packaging and brand guidelines infographic (page 136).

The book's style

Graphic design for dummies spends less ink on real-world examples than the first dozen design books I read. At the same time, it's more pedagogical, and it has a good number of simple illustrative examples. There's a greater focus on presenting and then applying its lessons.

Also unlike those other books, Graphic design for dummies is clearly not laid out spread by spread. Over and over again it breaks examples across spreads, has explanations begin on the spread before the diagrams they refer to, asks you to compare two figures requiring a page turn, and so on. This is more irritating than it sounds, and really drives home the value of designing spreads instead of just flowing the text.

Other parts of the design are good, and it's all teaching-oriented. I like the simple structure, the chapter summaries, and the consistency of chapter layout.

The book's content

Graphic design for dummies covers all the topics I've been reading about for months, and then some. If this was the first text I'd picked up, I think I would have been completely riveted. Even so, I found it engaging and useful.

Ben Hannam has an interesting view of creativity as an additive, expansive process, to be followed (iteratively) by what he calls logical thinking as a process of evaluation and narrowing down. I think 'logic' is the wrong word but see what he's gesturing at. "The goal of logical thinking is to identify the best or right solution. Often, logical thinking is a selective process where constraints dictate certain outcomes". I reflected a lot on how this opening-up / narrowing-down process might relate to game design.

Graphic design for dummies also lays out a seven-part design process which is cyclical and iterative:

1. Project brief and goals

2. Research and planning

3. Brainstorm concepts

4. Sketching and refining ideas

5. Design development

6. Feedback and revision

7. Finalisation and execution

This is reinforced by some incredibly actionable advice given for each phase. This is exactly what I've wanted more of from the design books. For example, phase 4 is about sketching ideas, combining and refining them, and has a really thorough worked example. The book's downloadable bonus chapters (more on them later) continue in this vein.

This is the high point of the book, and it's really strong. I wrote down a lot of notes. Hannam talks about iterating ideas early and often, and brainstorming widely, and I was struck by the sheer extent he recommends. For example, he has his design students make 150 thumbnail sketches for a project, and says he's observed a sketch ratio of 100 likely dead ends : 45 not particularly inspired/exciting/unique : 5 with great potential. I'd really like to take this and run with it as an exercise for both visual design and other creative activities.

Hannam gives solid advice on actually making decisions during the design process. He discusses ways of actually establishing hierarchy in Chapter 9 on layouts, and ways to actually pick a palette (with useful guidance on accessibility) in Chapter 10 on colour. Along the way he scatters in links to online tools, and the book is published recently enough that they work.

If only that was all. 

Design-by-numbers

Generative AI is mentioned throughout, beginning on page 26. Hannam makes his position clear: it is "impressive", "powerful", "extremely easy", etc, and tasks like "editing images [...] can be automated with powerful AI tools."

He uses Adobe Illustrator text-to-vector once for demonstrative purposes (page 71), but then wouldn't you know it, a couple more slip through unlabelled. For example, specimens on page 174 are likely made with the same text-to-vector, because they're grotesque. Graphic design for dummies features characters wearing skin-tone belts and one-and-a-half hats, with misshapen hands, ankles that extend behind instead of into their (mismatched) shoes, and so on.

The book closes with a brief tacked-on chapter on generative AI. Here, Hannam sets out to annoy me with:

• Relentless enthusiasm tempered with a tiny dash of mealy-mouthed both-sides-ing
• Referring to generative AI just as "AI", an acronym he defines then neglects to use
• Remarks about [generative] AI being able to "understand" things

This chapter makes a lot of claims that are, frankly, false.

• "AI can help deliver the content that users need more quickly and accurately than you could by using a set of static variables [in a traditional web storefront]."
• AI will "increase accuracy" and "can analyse data [...] more accurately than humans".
• AI can be used to reduce bias in things like "broad representation of different groups".
• AI can be used to "simulate" user interactions and A/B testing, i.e., fake data instead of gathering it.

This is nonsense, of course. Generative AI increases accuracy? It reduces bias? It's faster than serving static content? Anyone who understands the technology is shaking their head. Hannam loses the last of his credibility in this area by urging you to use [presumably generative] AI to track file changes, do file management, organise assets, and manage versioning. I would uhhhh. Advise against it.

Finally, there's a ton of pandering "will be able to" and "one might imagine" and "are likely to become" which I'm just sick of by now. There's a whole subsection on "AI-Powered Design Assistants" which the author admits is essentially fanfiction! Why on earth did the book get implausible, depressing, futurist fanfiction when a bunch of actual content got delegated to downloadable bonus chapters?

It's a good thing I'm not in the habit of giving numeric scores in reviews, because this chapter completely depleted my goodwill. It's hard to imagine a sourer note to end on... except wait, we're not done. Let's quickly download those bonus chapters.

Oh wait oh no

You thought the AI chapter was a bad look? Check this out.

This book was published less than a year ago. It promises in multiple places, including boldly on the back cover, that you can get six bonus chapters online at dummies.com. Nope! Actually you can't. You can go there and (a) buy this book, or (b) "engage with this book", i.e., type text into a chatbot. There is no way to (c) get the bonus chapters it promised.

Now, Graphic design for dummies provides two publisher links, so I checked those just in case. The first one is for support, booksupport.wiley.com, and it's a dead link! Again, this book was published last year! The other link also doesn't have the bonus chapters. You can send the publishers a message there... but only if you subscribe to them. WTF.

So I looked up author Ben Hannam's website to ask him about it. He has a message box, which formats your message in all caps like you're shouting. Then the Send Message button just throws an error.

 

At this point you just have to laugh. 

I was all set to compare this book to the Ambrose-Harris Vortex, in terms of the density of mistakes and parts of it being fundamentally broken. But ended up going back to the publisher's website on a whim and after some more digging I did find the bonus chapters. Notably not at the dummies.com domain which is where they're meant to be, and where several other For Dummies books have bonus chapters.

The bonus chapters, finally 

There's six bonus chapters, all very consistent with the rest of the book, full of grammatical errors but with some pretty useful content.

Chapter one: Walking through the process of designing a logo and a business card. I really liked these hands-on, in-depth examples. There's a funny typo in the quote on Hannam's mocked-up business card (Figure 9) but it does get fixed in the final result in Figure 10.

And it is so on the nose that it beggars belief that the personal logo Hannam ends up with at the end of his design process appears to read more like the acronym "AI" in lowercase than it does his initials "BH" which it's meant to be:

Chapter two: Strategies for success. Hannam repeats at length the old canard about "Roman war chariots" having led to railway track gauge and thence constrained the design of the Space Shuttle. This is false. Repeating it undermines his point about design constraints and makes the reader wonder what else he's got wrong.

Aside: Ten minutes of proper research puts the myth to rest. But maybe not if you "fact check" it with generative AI. I looked at Google's "search" "results" out of morbid curiosity, and the chatbot both-sides'ed it.

This chapter also has a section called "Escape the pitfall of repeating yourself", which is hilarious in the context of a book which repeats itself so often.

Chapter three: About avoiding common mistakes. It covers aspect ratios, working with images, file management, compression, colours, rich black, and going to press. Nothing new for me personally, but all good simple solid advice.

Chapter four: Exercises to test a new design student's skills. Also really good! I think the intended audience would find it exceptionally useful. I wish it had been included in the physical book instead of hidden away where most readers will never see it.

Chapters five and six: On receiving and giving critique. Mostly in the vein of career advice for a university student.

Hannam wraps up the bonus chapters with a protectiveness about graphic design students being exploited. It helped get me back in his corner a bit after the AI rubbish.

In summary 

What a rollercoaster. Graphic design for dummies has some of the most high-quality practical and focused advice, given in plain language and without talking down to the reader. It's probably the best graphic design teaching text I've read so far, and also stands up okay as an illustrative text. It doesn't really set out to be an inspirational text. And then of course it's error-riddled and full of AI slopaganda, and trying to find the bonus chapters was deeply frustrating.

Despite such deep flaws, I have to say that on the whole, I can recommend this book. But I'm still hoping to find something better.

The Ambrose-Harris Vortex: Four design book reviews

It's Febreviewary! I'm reviewing four graphic design books in this post. They're all written by Gavin Ambrose and Paul Harris, sometimes with a third author.

Enter the Ambrose-Harris Vortex 

The design books I've read so far in 2026 have been tied by an unexpected thread: Their remarkable number of typos and textual errors, despite in some sense being "text objects about making good text objects".

So far we've had the book that misspells its own title and the book with the broken index. Today we'll be looking at, amongst other things, a book with a remarkably wrong colour wheel.

I should note first off that the errors aren't a deal-breaker. These books are informative, visually delightful, and full of great examples of graphic design work. That they're very good books on the whole really just highlights how shockingly un-proofread they are. If they also had mediocre content, poor writing style, dull layout, etc, then I would have written them off and moved on, instead of bothering to note down the details for these reviews. Unfair? C'est la vie.

 

Book 1:

 

The fundamentals of typography (third edition). 2020. Gavin Ambrose, Paul Harris & Sallyanne Theodosiou.

This is a comprehensive primer. Between Practical typography and Typography essentials, I was already familiar with a lot of the basic instructional information that's given in The fundamentals of typography, but it was a comfortable familiarity. I think it would be a good introduction for a beginner or would serve in some respects as a reference work.

I found some of the visuals quite inspiring, and made some notes about things to try. Check out this neat bit of graphic typography, for example:

The book is pretty good about identifying its lettering examples, only occasionally mentioning a typeface without a visual example or giving an example without naming the typeface.

Problems 

The fundamentals of typography contains lots of basic typos (e.g., a repeated "the the", page 41). Beyond that, some poor wordings are compounded by a surprising number of outright textual errors in the examples constructed by the authors.

The first example of leading on a baselines grid on page 51, for instance, is incorrectly described as having "an effective leading of 24pt" and then is discussed in several contradictory ways.

An example of text justification causing too broad word spacing in spots somehow manages to place the highlight boxes over random parts of the paragraph, not over the spaces in question. This kind of error left me with the overall impression that some systematic reformatting done for an edition update broke some of the examples, and the creators never bothered to find and fix them.

In summary 

A solid introductory text let down by frankly amateurish errors. The book reproduces tons of nice pieces of typography from various designers, and is quite enjoyable to page through just to look at.

Book 2:

The fundamentals of creative design (second edition). 2011. Gavin Ambrose & Paul Harris.

This is a great design book. It's wide-ranging and comprehensive. Some of the material is shared with the other Ambrose & Harris books I'm reading, but most is new. The examples of graphic design work are numerous and on-point, and occasionally exquisite. I particularly enjoyed reading the chapter on layout and grids, and I also found the discussion of semiotics useful.

The book's visual design is just as nice as you'd expect. It's subtly colour-coded. Various varnishes, page treatments, and spot colours are used illustratively, to great effect.

Andy Potts design (page 105)

This is, I suppose, a fairly old book now. 2011 still feels recent to me, but 15 years on it really jumps out when the book mentions Youtube and Flash Player ('the format of choice for embedding video on the web') in the same breath. The whole 'for screen' section was a miss for me, but the only one.

More sloppiness 

I spotted the first typo on page 10 ("In turn, became were the basis for") and these proved to be omnipresent. The authors also have a problem with occasional poor sentence structures leading to ambiguous meanings.

More importantly, just as in The fundamentals of typography, the examples of real world graphic design soar, but the examples constructed by the authors are a joke. This book is riddled with diagrams which embarrassingly don't work. e.g.:

• Page 57 says "Although the bottom part of the letters in this subheading have [sic] been removed, it can still be read easily." The bottom part has not been removed.
• Page 124 mixes up left and right.
• Pages 137 and 169 have example images that don't match their descriptions (a greyscale image is meant to be magenta, and spot varnish is not applied as the authors describe).
• The colour wheel on page 126 is preposterously mislabelled:

Sorry for the poor photo. The two colours you can't see are labelled as yellow (correctly) and yellow-green (arguably correctly).

It's hard to even count the colour wheel errors because it's so mangled. I think it's meant to be a cyan-magenta-yellow colour wheel, because yellow and magenta (the latter mislabelled as 'red-orange') are labelled as primary, and cyan is included (albeit mislabelled as a secondary colour). The twelve hues are what you'd expect: it includes the tertiary rose hue between magenta and red, and it has three hues for red through yellow where a red-blue-yellow wheel would have five.

...But the tertiary hue labels are for a red-blue-yellow colour wheel: yellow-orange, red-orange, red-purple, blue-purple, yellow-green, and blue-green. And these aren't even a 'best effort' to try to apply the R-B-Y labels to a C-M-Y wheel! They only have the word 'primary' on there twice! Yellow-orange is between yellow and red! There are two red-oranges!

I assumed at first this got broken during an edition update, but nope: I managed to find the original (2003) edition and it doesn't include a colour wheel at all. What happened?

In summary

I like this book as an instructional text, and the examples of people's graphic design work are so good. A real shame about the errors. I've been thinking about that colour wheel for weeks.

 

Book 3:

 

The layout book (second edition). 2015. Gavin Ambrose & Paul Harris.

I like the opening quote, which articulates my reason for wanting to learn more graphic design:

Design is a plan for arranging elements in such a way as best to accomplish a particular purpose. 

– Charles Eames

I want to have a more purposeful approach to every page I make, and have the skills and tools at hand for doing so.

It's unfortunate

I am still deep in the Ambrose-Harris Vortex. The layout book gets sloppy immediately.

• There's a 38-word run on sentence in the first paragraph of the first chapter.
• Page 12 is missing a sentence subject.
• There are missing commas every few pages, plus a few unnecessary extra commas (e.g. pages 17, 149, 164).
• Page 19 alone has a missing space, a missing comma, a missing word, and begins two sentences in a row with "Here, the".
• Page 86 has a section on creep (a technical term) without ever saying what it is. Other times it was unclear whether an out-of-place word was an undefined graphical design term which the reader should go look up, or simply the result of a botched sentence. See e.g. "reveals" on page 150.
• Some sentences have a singular/plural mismatch (e.g. pages 144, 150).
• There are tons of basic typos that should be picked up by automatic spellchecking (e.g. page 145, "mutliple"; page 114, "0dominate"; page 176, "challanges"; page 179, "picutred").
• The instructions on page 73 for dividing a golden rectangle end with "multiply by 1" for some reason.
• The page 184 caption is a run-on sentence of more than a dozen phrases.
• Page 99 changes horses in midstream with "Notice how use of a grid to create balanced areas of intervention, where text blocks mirror adjacent images or white space."

There are awkward phrasings or grammatical errors on almost every spread. I just don't understand how everything else about the book is so nice but they couldn't be bothered to fix the text-level stuff. Speaking as a former semiprofessional copy editor, you don't even need to hire one to pick up most of this stuff! The authors could have just taken a day to read their text aloud and noticed 95% of it!

Take the phrase-salad on page 92. Incorrect comma usage and subject/object mismatch, plural/singular mismatch, all in one paragraph. You can tell there's a text problem from the most casual read. It really comes across as text that was drafted but at most got a single edit at the paragraph level.

On the bright side, there were fewer author-made examples in this book. The systematic botching of them seen in the previous two books wasn't present; I only noticed a couple of very minor mistakes. In fact, a part of the book I liked the most included this straightforward author-constructed example of layout elements (and the accompanying discussion):

 

Size

This is a 22×30 cm book. It's really nice to have a larger space with so much allocated to visual examples. The authors also break up the text by switching to a large point size for introductory paragraphs, which I don't consciously care about but which I have to presume is a considered, psychologically effective choice (given that this is The layout book).

Structure

The book's six chapters cover historical context, basic layout principles, grids, page objects, interviews with designers, and reader exercises. The last two make The layout book stand out from the other primers I've read.

This book helped me understand hierarchy and orientation in particular and was worth it for that alone. Generally the content is very good. At its worst, there are a few cases where the authors fall into the trap of saying that a thing can be done but not properly explaining how it can be done, relying too heavily on the book's (again, just excellent) real-world-design visual examples. This happens e.g. in the analogy of depth-of-field to hierarchy and layering on page 150.

In summary

I liked The layout book. It's a visual extravaganza. I think I'd have enjoyed it more if I wasn't coming from two other books by the same authors, covering some overlapping ground, with the same boatload of sloppy errors.

 

Book 4:

 

The fundamentals of graphic design (second edition). 2020. Gavin Ambrose, Paul Harris, & Nigel Ball.

I'll admit, I picked this one up weeks after reading the others, just out of a perverse sense of curiosity. Would it continue the pattern?

Visual design

Each chapter page has a footnote looking ahead to the chapter contents in short-form, with page references, a bit like an old-fashioned novel summarising the chapter's contents ahead of time.

Odd book design choices I wish I knew the creators' reason for:

• They use a large-sized display font for the opening body text in each spread.
• There's a text adornment gimmick: a long underline at the start of each introductory paragraph for a new section. A hundred instances of that meant at least fifty times that I instinctively tried for a moment to 'solve' the text like a crossword clue. Probably not what they intended!
• Subsection headings are set in green boxes, subsubsection headings in white boxes, but the text is flush with the bottom of the box (so that letters with descenders dangle out of it) for some reason.

The callout boxes at the bottom of the page used to define terms of art are a nice touch, although I was amused on page 62 when the definition of 'values' relied on four-dollar words like 'acrimonious'.

The book's accompanying glossary is very comprehensive (seven pages)!

Content and writing

This book's take on the classic what is graphic design? opener includes (page 8):

Graphic design takes ideas, concepts, text and images and presents them in a visually engaging form through print, digital, or other media. It imposes an order and structure to the content in order to facilitate and ease the communication process, while optimizing the likelihood that the message will be received and understood by the target audience. A designer achieves this goal through the conscious manipulation of elements [...]

...which I rather like. It sets expectations that the book is going to be slightly more pragmatic than the others; these were borne out. The authors describe the expected commercial/studio graphic design process, walking through the steps, and go into some detail on the practicalities of paper, ink, production, packaging, etc.

By necessity, there's a fair amount of overlap with the other Ambrose-Harris books, but refreshingly few repeated examples of real-world design (I'd guess 98%+ were new).

The authors impressed me by covering all the bases and then finding room throughout for some really thoughtful discourse. There are short essays on social responsibility, consumerism, anti-consumerism, "subvertisements", greenwashing, design as a non-neutral process, and the "misery of choice".

Aside: I find that as I get old and set in my ways I'm caring far more about the serial comma. The authors refuse to include it, but are at least consistent about it. Still, it really is conspicuous in its absence, creating a visual hiccup every time you miss it and have to re-parse the word 'and'. Why choose to make your text harder to read?

Are there text-level problems?

No prizes for guessing yes. I noticed all sorts of basic errors:

• Agency accidentally assigned to an immersive experience (page 7).
• Misuse of words and phrases like "despite" (page 11), "impact on" (pages 14, 42), "comprising of" (page 58), and "resided" (for "resized", page 159).
• Several missing spaces on page 57 and missing words like "the" on page 89.
• Faulty pluralisation in a few places, like "is"/"are" confusion on page 68, and "access to a mobile devices" on page 152.
• Grammar mistakes that smack of hastily rewritten sentences. On page 108: "[...] a wide range of flexibility in the finish, which can be obtained in the final product and the print run possible."

(The authors also use "his or her", a phrase I'd consider deprecated by this point.)

There are only about 15 author-created examples in this book, and perhaps due to that relative paucity, none of them were outright broken. The "communication flow between agencies and clients" diagram on page 143 does approach that status. It ought to serve as an aid to comprehending the text, but this one is so abstract that a reader who hasn't already understood the main text won't be able to puzzle out the meaning of the diagram.

In summary

The fundamentals of graphic design didn't wow me quite as much with its real-world graphic design examples as the other Ambrose & Harris books. But it covered a lot of ground in quite practical ways, and the interspersed high-level ethical and philosophical treatments of graphic design considerations were a pleasant surprise.

 —

Closing thoughts

All books have flaws. It was a weird experience to read books so deeply flawed in one aspect and almost impeccable in all the others.

Reflecting, I think all four books were very good at 'describing the process' but fell slightly short on 'teaching the process'. I would have been interested in an extra chapter in each for the authors to go through one or two examples in meticulous detail. The fundamentals of typography could have picked fonts or modified typography for particular situations, The layout book could have worked through the actual process of deciding and applying a layout, and the two design books could have gone from a brief to completed design. A missed opportunity.

I should emphasise in closing that I'd still recommend these books.

Okay, fling me free of the Ambrose-Harris Vortex. I have a few more graphic design books to read and review this month and I think they're going to be a change of pace.